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Stop Telling Me to Buy Things I’m Not Interested In


on May 30, 2016

Certain things have really been rubbing me the wrong way lately. One is false advertising from DC Comics that relates to John Stewart, which I have written about in this article, and another is certain fans trying to convince John Stewart fans that we should settle for less, and ultimately buy crap we’re not interested in. This is usually suggested to us under the belief that it is all for the betterment of the Green Lantern franchise, or, weirdly, diversity in comics.

See, the idea works like this: if you buy a bunch of Hal Jordan or whoever comics, maybe… maybe… there is a chance you may eventually see a John Stewart spin off. And if you buy enough comics that feature black characters like John Stewart as worthless token wallpaper, then maybe… maybe… there is the chance that DC might actually do something worthwhile with the characters.

First, I’m going to admit an unfortunate truth. Many of us have already played those games with DC before. We never should have in the first place, because they are based on incredibly flawed, warped, backwards principles. But we did. And guess what we discovered? None of it leads anywhere, except for the thinning of our wallets and the fattening of DC’s coffers, all toward products we don’t really support. DC winds up doing the exact same things they have always been doing; sucking at black characters in general and pushing John as far in the background as they reasonably can.

When you ask me to support that, or suggest that I should, what I have to say to you is “kiss my butt.” I will buy products that I am interested in. Those are the only products I will buy. At this stage, I am not interested in Green Lantern products that feature Green Lanterns other than John Stewart, because I ultimately don’t care about those characters enough. There is nothing wrong with that and I have no shame about it, nor should I. I never signed a contract saying that just because I am a fan of John Stewart, I must also support all these other completely different characters that are not John Stewart.

A counter argument seems to be “if you think John Stewart was ever meant to be a big deal, you’re delusional. He was never set up to be that.” If that’s the case, then I’m definitely not going to spend my money on those products.

Many fans of John Stewart are interested in him because he was a big deal on a television program that went out to way more people than any of those comic books. On Justice League and Justice League Unlimited, John was treated as an important, complex hero of high standing, who was integral to the show, and who didn’t really take a backseat to anyone, least of all a bunch of characters that aren’t recognized as much as he is.

If DC wants to ignore all the people who grew up watching John Stewart presented that way, and who still watch him, well, that’s their decision. They tried that before when the 2011 Green Lantern film arrived, and we saw the response it got. Some of these fans who make these suggestions don’t seem to fully realize that DC isn’t who has the power here. I don’t even think DC fully realizes that. We are the ones with the power. We have what DC wants, which is money.

Either DC offers what we want, or we won’t give them our money. That only makes sense. That’s how I operate with everything else, so I’m not sure why John Stewart should be any different. When I go to the deli, I buy pepper turkey instead of roast beef, because I like pepper turkey. I don’t ever buy roast beef on the fragile hope of some weird round about benefit that likely won’t even happen.

If the whole thing somehow doesn’t work out, and the Green Lantern franchise gets shot to hell, what do I care? It wasn’t giving me what I wanted to see anyway, and DC seems determined to keep things that way, so it’s not like I’ll have any sad feelings about that. There are innumerable other things I can spend my money and time on that I actually like and that don’t frustrate me.

Therefore, no one should think for a second that John Stewart fans in general are somehow at the mercy of DC Comics and need to capitulate to them. If push comes to shove, we’ll be perfectly fine packing our bags, going where the weather is nicer, and enjoying ourselves with products that give us what we want. Indeed, many of us have already done just that.

In the end, the divided state of the Green Lantern fanbase is a situation DC has put themselves in that either they will work out or they won’t. The fans are not at all accountable for the sorry state of the Green Lantern franchise, nor are they the ones responsible for fixing DC’s problems.



  • Sebastian Suarez

    Hey Desh,

    It would seem as if this post relates exactly as to what I am arguing over the CBR forum. At least I can see some point by point similarities to what I posted over there. Since I used to follow your arguments there, and I continue to visit your website, I think I will take the time to come with a firendly rebuttal on this, and post it here. Hope we can have a friendly discussion.

    You argue that “certain fans trying to convince John Stewart fans that we should settle for less, and ultimately buy crap we’re not interested in. This is usually suggested to us under the belief that it is all for the betterment of the Green Lantern franchise, or, weirdly, diversity in comics.”

    If you follow my post, and my logic, I merely stated that Stewart fans should support Jordan centered-comics as much as Jordan fans should support Stewart-centered comics. Same goes with Gardner and Rayner fans. In fact my argument is based in how a comic with Rayner as one of the characters, which has been critically acclaimed by authors and critics alike (Omega Men) received almost no support from others save core Kyle Rayner fans, leading to a sharp decline in readership that ultimately led to the cancellation of the title. This, in my mind, is a consequence of the “My GL or the highway” philosophy currently present in the GL fanbase.

    This philosophy is ultimately catastrophic to the wider line, as seen in the current state of the franchise.

    You then say: “See, the idea works like this: if you buy a bunch of Hal Jordan or whoever comics, maybe…maybe… there is a chance you may eventually see a John Stewart spin off.”

    What I propose goes along those lines, but there is no revanchism, no fracture in the lines of GL fanbase. If you buy a Hal comic, then maybe just maybe, you can show by example and encourage Hal fans to buy John comics. As it is, if you decline to buy a Hal book (and you are in all your right to do it) and boast to the winds of this fact, that leads to Hal fans not buying John comics. See what happens next? Both titles get cancelled. And here is the fundamental difference between you and me. For you it is ok to not have any GL title, if your GL is not the main protagonist. I would like to have at least one GL title per month no matter who is the main GL (albeit having more than one is always welcome). Do you really want to go to the 90s?

    You continue: “First, I’m going to admit an unfortunate truth. Many of us have already played those games with DC before. We never should have in the first place, because they are based on incredibly flawed, warped, backwards principles. But we did. And guess what we discovered? None of it leads anywhere, except for the thinning of our wallets and the fattening of DC’s coffers, all toward products we don’t really support. DC winds up doing the exact same things they have always been doing; sucking at black characters in general and pushing John as far in the background as they reasonably can.”

    Really? How so? Didn’t you read John comics for the last 10 years? Wasn’t he in GLC and later in a bunch of miniseries? This argument sounds like that of a spoiled child. You have comics where John is consistently shown as a capable leader, and consistently appears, but you want more. You want him as the sole lead of a franchise that was not his to begin with. You wanna go back to the 90s? Can you really argue that Stewart’s role and profile since Rebirth has not increase?

    You then say: “At this stage, I am not interested in Green Lantern products that feature Green Lanterns other than John Stewart, because I ultimately don’t care about those characters enough. There is nothing wrong with that and I have no shame about it, nor should I. I never signed a contract saying that just because I am a fan of John Stewart, I must also support all these other completely different characters that are not John Stewart.”

    Certainly there is nothing wrong with supporting “your” GL. My point of argument is more when you “only” support “your” GL without consideration of what that might mean to the franchise as a whole. Alas, don’t you think that asking others to support your vision (and version) of the franchise seems a bit hypocrital when you can’t do it yourself?

    You continue: “A counter argument seems to be “if you think John Stewart was ever meant to be a big deal, you’re delusional. He was never set up to be that.” If that’s the case, then I’m definitely not going to spend my money on those products.”

    And you will walk into the darkness. No more GL for you then. Eventually, if enough Stewart fans follow your path, the fanbase will shrink enough to support one or two titles max. Oh, but wait, we are already there, and guess who is not getting a title? John Stewart. In comics, if you dont support a character (no matter how or when) the character goes away and fades into obscurity. It might take years to get him back. Do you want to go back to the 90s? We are there…

    You add: “Many fans of John Stewart are interested in him because he was a big deal on a television program that went out to way more people than any of those comic books. On Justice League and Justice League Unlimited, John was treated as an important, complex hero of high standing, who was integral to the show, and who didn’t really take a backseat to anyone, least of all a bunch of characters that aren’t recognized as much as he is.”

    I am sorry but here we have to disagree… JL and JLU are kids shows. Comics are not for kids anymore. Nor have they been for a long time. He was no more complex that a kid show allows for him to be. His tv show persona, when translated into comics, is boring and generic. And really… his recognition outside comic fans who are also show fans is reduced to “the black guy of the team”. If anything, Super Friend also made an ipact and so did YJ and whatnot. But this is not about the version of Stewart you want to see; it is more about the other GLs you don’t want to see.

    You say: “If DC wants to ignore all the people who grew up watching John Stewart presented that way, and who still watch him, well, that’s their decision. They tried that before when the 2011 Green Lantern film arrived, and we saw the response it got. Some of these fans who make these suggestions don’t seem to fully realize that DC isn’t who has the power here. I don’t even think DC fully realizes that.We are the ones with the power. We have what DC wants, which is money.”

    But see, DC does not ignores those who grew up watching JL and JLU. They put him in JLA back in the day due to the show, and since Rebirth, he has taken front seat in many adventures and comic books. He went from nothing in the 90s to be a character to reckon. But you don’t want more. You want all. You dont understand that GL is a franchise: it is not a motorcycle, it is a car. One drives, others ride shotgun, others take the backseat. Your insistence with making John drive, or even worse, making it into a motorcycle, is blaffing.

    You conclude: “If the whole thing somehow doesn’t work out, and the Green Lantern franchise gets shot to hell, what do I care? It wasn’t giving me what I wanted to see anyway, and DC seems determined to keep things that way, so it’s not like I’ll have any sad feelings about that. There are innumerable other things I can spend my money and time on that I actually like and that don’t frustrate me.”

    If the GL franchise dissapears and you don’t care… then you are really not a fan of GL, just of John Stewart. And in that we have to part ways. As I mentioned many times, I wonder how would you feel if this where the 90s, where JS appeared in like… what? 5 GL issues for 10 years? If you as a fan of JS dont want that to happen, then yes, work to make the character more popular and to increase his visibility, but always whithin the framework of a healthy franchise.

    I think our fundamental difference comes from the fact that as a Kyle Rayner fan, I understand that Editorial has the ultimate power to make my character fade away. So I support the GL franchise with the hope to see him pop up in a good role, and not have him killed off or just dissapear in obscurity. If I stop buying his comics, even when he has to share spotlight with others, or his character his changed to suit a (great) story, then I am more than willing to do it, because I understand the nature of comics and the comic industry. But it seems you just want “your way or the highway”. That philosophy has never done any good.

    In the end, all I care is for Hal to have his title, for John to have his title, and for Guy and Kyle to have their title. And if they can all sell more than 40k per month, you have make me very happy. Can you say the same for yourself?

    • Mikel

      I agree with you Sebastian, it’s smarter to support the Green Lanterns as a franchise, it gives your favorite lantern more potential to shine if there are several titles. It’s unfortunate that Desh only cares about John Stewart, I’m also a fan of the Justice League cartoon and John, but I also like Hal, Kyle and other lanterns, they all deserve respect and support from the fans.

    • rob smith

      I disagree. The problem I see with green lantern comics isn’t that they don’t sell. At least Hal and John don’t have that problem. It wasn’t that long ago that GL Corpse was selling just fine, and the fans were happy following the story. Every time DC editorial decides to interrupt a story/creative team, in order to take the book in a new direction, they lose readership.

      Before Lost Army, the Van Jensen run was selling similar to the Sinestro title. For some reason, that supposedly wasn’t good enough for Corpse, but they never took Sinestro in a new direction in the same way they do John. Then Lost Army sold a little bit less instead of more, and they canceled that run. Now Edge of Oblivion is selling incredibly low numbers, all because John’s fans are fed up with the way DC treats the character.

      It might be nice if the fans all did support every GL character, but that’s a fantasy. DC doesn’t treat every GL character equally, so you can’t expect the fans to do so.

      • Hudson Faber

        IIRC, GLC was far outselling Sinestro when it was cancelled for Lost Army.

    • Hudson Faber

      Yeah, some of your comments like calling John boring indicate you likely weren’t buying Jensen’s GLC run or Bunny’s Last Army run

      Sorry, no. We bought his book for 8 years during the Johns run when he was in the background doing nothing while everyone else got focus. Sales = Rewards. It wasn’t until new creative teams and fan complaints happened that John got a focus. I’m not falling into the trap of wasting money again. Either the interests of editorial are aligned with us or they aren’t. Hal has had tons of failed series and DC hasn’t given up on him. John has had no failed series and he gets close to jack ****.

      John never got love in the comics during the JLU years, where he never played a major role or took center stage or was elaborated on. He has been demoted for whole new GLS recently. And whenever Kyle or Guy or Hal is in a book with him, he takes a back seat like in GLC before Jensen or Edge of Oblivion after Jensen. Jensen is the only writer who gave him the comics love he deserves in the last 30 years.

      No Justice, no peace. 😛

    • Desh Derringer

      Yes, when I’m buying products and spending my money, it’s going to be my way or the highway, because I don’t buy things I don’t like, and I encourage others to not do that. I will not knowingly spend money on things that I know will leave my dissatisfied.
      “If you buy a Hal comic, then maybe just maybe, you can show by example and encourage Hal fans to buy John comics. As it is, if you decline to buy a Hal book (and you are in all your right to do it) and boast to the winds of this fact, that leads to Hal fans not buying John comics. See what happens next? Both titles get cancelled. And here is the fundamental difference between you and me. For you it is ok to not have any GL title, if your GL is not the main protagonist. I would like to have at least one GL title per month no matter who is the main GL (albeit having more than one is always welcome). Do you really want to go to the 90s?”

      I might be more prone to buy a Hal Jordan comic if the character that I REALLY like wasn’t always trampled on for the sake of Hal Jordan. Now, I have absolutely no interest in buying a Hal Jordan comic. This is where DC put themselves in the position they are in with the Green Lantern fanbase. They divided it themselves.

      “Really? How so? Didn’t you read John comics for the last 10 years? Wasn’t he in GLC and later in a bunch of miniseries? This argument sounds like that of a spoiled child. You have comics where John is consistently shown as a capable leader, and consistently appears, but you want more. You want him as the sole lead of a franchise that was not his to begin with. You wanna go back to the 90s? Can you really argue that Stewart’s role and profile since Rebirth has not increase?”

      When you say I want John as the sole lead of the franchise, you’re making a big assumption. Would I mind if John was the sole lead? Not at all. Is that the only way I will accept things? No. However, being background wallpaper that basically doesn’t make any difference to the franchise is also not something I will not accept. But the main point is that John is not being portrayed as I would like to see him. Maybe you think I’m spoiled, and if you do, then whatever. All that really matters is that things aren’t the way I want to see them, and they are consistently the way I don’t want to see them, so I’m not going to spend my money on those products.

      “Certainly there is nothing wrong with supporting “your” GL. My point of argument is more when you “only” support “your” GL without consideration of what that might mean to the franchise as a whole. Alas, don’t you think that asking others to support your vision (and version) of the franchise seems a bit hypocrital when you can’t do it yourself?”

      I’m not sure what you mean when you say I ask people to support my vision and version of the franchise. I think people should support what they like, and that’s it. If there’s stuff they don’t like, then they shouldn’t support it. And if they don’t like it, I won’t try to convince them or suggest to them that they should support it anyway. So, no, I don’t see myself as a hypocrite at all.

      “And you will walk into the darkness. No more GL for you then. Eventually, if enough Stewart fans follow your path, the fanbase will shrink enough to support one or two titles max. Oh, but wait, we are already there, and guess who is not getting a title? John Stewart. In comics, if you dont support a character (no matter how or when) the character goes away and fades into obscurity. It might take years to get him back. Do you want to go back to the 90s? We are there…”

      Then I suppose I will walk into darkness. It’s a good thing there are a ton of other activities I can do with my time and money.

      “I am sorry but here we have to disagree… JL and JLU are kids shows. Comics are not for kids anymore. Nor have they been for a long time. He was no more complex that a kid show allows for him to be. His tv show persona, when translated into comics, is boring and generic. And really… his recognition outside comic fans who are also show fans is reduced to “the black guy of the team”. If anything, Super Friend also made an ipact and so did YJ and whatnot. But this is not about the version of Stewart you want to see; it is more about the other GLs you don’t want to see.”

      John Stewart was way more complex on that kids show than most characters in comics I read. His TV show persona was translated into comics and written by some writers that don’t really appreciate the character the way the television writers did. Therein lays the discrepancy between John on television and John in comics. But if you think John is just boring, period. That’s fine. I never try to convince people to like characters that they just don’t. I wouldn’t suggest that you go buy comics that star him if you don’t like the character.

      “But see, DC does not ignores those who grew up watching JL and JLU. They put him in JLA back in the day due to the show, and since Rebirth, he has taken front seat in many adventures and comic books. He went from nothing in the 90s to be a character to reckon. But you don’t want more. You want all. You dont understand that GL is a franchise: it is not a motorcycle, it is a car. One drives, others ride shotgun, others take the backseat. Your insistence with making John drive, or even worse, making it into a motorcycle, is blaffing.”

      I want John portrayed as a character that matters that gets focus specifically on him, that is also written well, and that isn’t shoved off behind some other characters most of the time. I personally don’t think that is too much to ask for, nor do I think it is very difficult for DC to do any of that. They just don’t want to. And so I don’t give them my money. Makes sense to me.

      If the GL franchise dissapears and you don’t care… then you are really not a fan of GL, just of John Stewart. And in that we have to part ways. As I mentioned many times, I wonder how would you feel if this where the 90s, where JS appeared in like… what? 5 GL issues for 10 years? If you as a fan of JS dont want that to happen, then yes, work to make the character more popular and to increase his visibility, but always whithin the framework of a healthy franchise.

      If you want to label me as not a Green Lantern fan and just a fan of John Stewart, that’s fine. That’s nothing I am ashamed of. I did build this site, after all, and it is dedicated to one character… a character who happens to be Green Lantern. John actually appeared in a pretty big number of 90s Green Lantern and The Darkstars comics. I know, because I own all of the issues. It’s true that he wasn’t always the chief focus of them, but he made appearances. If, back then, I wasn’t satisfied with John’s appearances, I would just do what I’m doing now and not buy the comics.

      “In the end, all I care is for Hal to have his title, for John to have his title, and for Guy and Kyle to have their title. And if they can all sell more than 40k per month, you have make me very happy. Can you say the same for yourself?”

      Not really. The status of the other Green Lanterns honestly isn’t a big concern of mine. If they do well, then great. It’s cool their fans have something to read with them in it. If they don’t, then it isn’t much of a concern of mine, unless it somehow affects John Stewart (which it actually usually does). But I can’t really worry about the status of every character in comics, and I don’t think most people do. I have my favorite characters, of which John Stewart is among, but the other Earth Lanterns are not.

      • Sebastian Suarez

        First of all, I would like to thanks those who replied to my comment. I really appreciate this exchange and for sure it helps me in seeing your point of view. I would like to address a few more things:

        To Rob and Hudson (if I might),

        First of all, I am of the opinion that to say that “Hal and John sell” is bias. First because under the right writer every character sells. Hal did it, John did it, Guy did it, Sinestro did it and Kyle did it. Secondly, that assumption is wrong because the decline in readers in Hal-led and John-led books is remarkable. GLC v3 was selling well under 40k during most of the volume and the sales kept going down. Lost Army and Edge of Oblivion also suffered from low sales. Remember, GLC is a book that was selling well avobe the 50k range. Fans might have been happy, but I can see why DC would want to change direction: Improve sales.

        Regarding GLC, Sinestro, Emerald Warriors/Red Lanterns, and New Guardians, without the numbers right on top of my head, and rememberign that ALL of those titles were cancelled at the same time except Sinestro, one could argue that this was done, again, to improve sales. Yes, GLC was selling more than Sinestro BUT was GLC selling more than GLC a couple years earlier? Was GLC selling what a GLC title should sell? I don’t think so. And let’s just remember, GLC was the only one who was cancelled only to have it being replaced almost instantly by another book featuring the same cast.

        Finally, Lost Army and Edge of Oblivion are selling terribly. Not “just a bit less”. They are selling terribly. Period. I enjoyed both books (well EoO is not over yet) but I can see from a economically perspective, it made sense to scrap plans.

        To Desh,

        I undertand you are in your absolute right to not buy things you don’t like or that might leave you dissatisfied. I might not fully endorse your “encouragement of others to do the same.” And btw, I am not even limiting it to a Hal-centered book. As I said before, all GL fans should support the entire line.

        Now, I wonder. You say you are not interested in buying a Hal comic but you might be willing to do it if the character you like wasn’t trampled on for his sake. So I take you wouldn’t buy a Hal-centered comic at all if the character you like doesn’t show up at all, right?

        How can we really say that John is a background character post-rebirth, when he has co-starred with Kyle in around 10 issues of GLC v2, starred GLC v3 for 40 issues, starred Lost Army for 6 issues, and co-starred with Guy in EoO for 6 issues. Those are almost 60 issues (give or take dependeing on your opinion of EoO) dedicated to John and only to him (plus some more in the main title). He has been shown as a competent leader, a man of action, a great GL. So I wonder how would you like to see him portrayed and where? Because, again, this 60 appearances are far more than what he got in the 80s and 90s put together.

        When I refer that you ask other to support your vision I am making a reference to the fact that, as you have mentioned before, you “encourage others not to buy the title”. By not buying the title, others are aligning themselves with your vision of the franchise. You ecourage them to not support the title and suggest to them that they shouldn’t support it when it doesn’t appeal to you. All this btw, is a direct logic from your previous statements. At the same time, you ask DC (and others) that Stewart should have a different role, and to support your idea.

        I fully don’t understand how can you keep saying GL is in the dark and then right away make the point that in the last couple years you liked Jensen’s GLC and Bunn’s LA,. Put ogether those are 26 issues. More than the 90s Mosaic. More than what John ever got before. You should be thrilled at the prospect of new adventures.

        BTW, I never said John was boring. I also said his TV persona is boring and cliché. It doesn’t hold water on comics. I have seen one page spreads about John who makes him into a great more compelling character than the entire TV show put together. John is a character that in the last couple of years has been written consistently well, shown as the Corps leader, a man of resolution, a leader and a warrior. His comics had impact. What else do you want? To see him save the universe in Infinite Crisis? That will hardly EVER happen. Maybe you have a higher standard.

        And John… John is nothing without the ring. The same way that the other GLs are nothing without it. They are Green Lanterns or they are nothing. Yes John was once a Darkstar, and Hal was a ghost, and even Guy was a warrior… that didn’t last. I don’t think it was ever built to last.

        Anyway, nice discussion. Appreciate the exchange. Can’t wait to see your response.

        Cheers!

        • Desh Derringer

          At this stage, I wouldn’t buy a Hal centered comic at all. I have bought Hal centered comics in which John is totally absent before when I didn’t feel as alienated or unwelcome by Green Lantern and DC in general. This was when John Stewart was appearing on new episodes of JL/JLU.

          Now, this isn’t to say that DC’s attitude toward John was way different back then. Rather, I just didn’t know their stance as well back then, because it wasn’t quite as manifest to me. I was getting a good John fix from cartoons and was generally satisfied, even though I did notice that he was often skipped over/ignored in comics. It’s key to point out that the cartoons weren’t made by DC Comics, so it took a completely different entity to actually do something really worthwhile with the character that left me a pretty happy camper.

          About John Stewart post-Rebirth. Okay, there is a big difference between a character simply being ‘around’ and a character actually getting worthwhile focus that is actually good. Post-Rebirth, John got none of the latter during the years Geoff Johns was writing Green Lantern. John was just occasionally around.

          The Tony Bedard GLC period is Kyle Rayner-centric. John is just there. Bedard is actually on record saying he likes Kyle best, so it isn’t surprising that he gave Kyle the lime light. I was not satisfied with these comics.

          The Peter Tomasi GLC period you mention is Guy Gardner-centric. John is around and used as a plot device. Case in point, John gets in trouble, and Guy goes to save him. Repeatedly. This happened in the opening arc when the Corps fought the keepers, and in the Alpha-War arc. The real focus of the run is on Guy Gardner, which is made very apparent by the number 0 issue that focused on Guy’s origin, and Tomasi’s finale issue that focused on Guy. Both key issues totally ignored John. I was not satisfied with these comics.

          As I mentioned, I was satisfied with Van Jensen’s GLC run and Cullen Bunn’s Lost Army.

          Edge of Oblivion is Guy Gardner-centric. John is just around as a supporting character.

          So, in short, in all the issues you mentioned of the Post-Rebirth period, I was happy with… about 26 or so. I think over the course of 12 years, and multiple Lantern titles, that is an incredibly paltry amount. Simply having John Stewart ‘around’ isn’t enough to excite me.

          Here’s a quote of yours I want to highlight:

          “When I refer that you ask other to support your vision I am making a reference to the fact that, as you have mentioned before, you “encourage others not to buy the title”. By not buying the title, others are aligning themselves with your vision of the franchise. You ecourage them to not support the title and suggest to them that they shouldn’t support it when it doesn’t appeal to you. All this btw, is a direct logic from your previous statements. At the same time, you ask DC (and others) that Stewart should have a different role, and to support your idea.”

          I suggest people don’t support the title when it doesn’t appeal to THEM. Not ME. Of course, when you read an article of mine, it is MY opinion. If other people’s opinions align with mine, and they don’t like the Green Lantern comics coming out, then yes, I suggest they don’t buy them. Unless they somehow enjoy buying things they don’t like, or are buying them simply for completionist purposes.

          I liked Jensen’s GLC, and Bunn’s Lost Army. Now they are over and in their place we got Edge of Oblivion, and a Hal Jordan book coming out with John as some background character. And before Jensen’s GLC were years and years and years of GL comics that didn’t interest me, as I went over previously in this reply. So yes, for me, Green Lantern post-Rebirth generally hasn’t appealed to me. There have been a few momentary bright spots.

          I don’t really feel like talking about the incredibly subjective issue of John being boring, because that is just entirely up to a person’s personal taste.

          And I agree, I like John Stewart as a Green Lantern. However, if you want to label me as not a real Green Lantern fan, then I don’t really care enough to try to refute you.

          And I’m happy you’re enjoying the discussion. It is interesting.

        • PadThai2

          If by one page spreads you mean John Stewart moping about Xanshi and being ineffective, then give me the cartoons any day. In the 80s and 90s, Stewart actually got to be the star in GL and GL: Mosaic. He had a personality and life separate from the GLC. Whatever I may have felt about Cosmic Odyssey, Gerard Jones did a good job taking that story and using it to build up Stewart. That was ignored by just about every other writer on that character afterwards.

          What I want to see with John Stewart is a three-dimensional, fully realized character. If he’s the leader, then let him be the fucking leader instead of pushing him behind Guy like they did in Edge of Oblivion. Let him shine and don’t constantly put him in situations where if it were any other GL they would find some BS deux ex machina way out (ex. Stewart destroying Mogo and killing Kiirt). Let him smile, strategize, love, etc. without reducing him to Louis Gossett all the time.

          To me, what matters is the quality of the appearances. Did you read GLC when Guy and Kyle were partners? I liked that period. I was also reading GL at the same time. This was a book where Hal and John were partners, yet John wouldn’t show up for several issues and if he did appear, it was some bullshit scene like sniping a snail alien or having missions off-panel. He never got to be the focus of anything the way the other three were and as a reader, I don’t find that appealing. It is the 21st century and in a time where comics have had Milestone (hi Static and Icon), Brotherman, hell even Naruto there’s no excuse for that kind of writing. Don’t say “Oh they’ll all be equals” if you have no intention of doing it.

          Seeing comics as just franchises leads to a kind of mindset where instead of reading or writing quality stories, the goal is to flood the shelves with product. This leads to a lot of mediocrity coming out from both DC and Marvel and fans supporting it simply because their favorite characters show up doesn’t help out at all. It tells DC that you’ll settle for anything and that doesn’t give them any incentive to improve. They should have to earn your money, not the other way around.

          As for John Stewart fans needing to support the titles of other Green Lanterns I’ll say this. I’m a fan of Guy Gardner and one of the first GL comics I owned was a trade of Emerald Knights staring Kyle. When John Stewart was the GL in JL/JLU, I remember fans of Hal and Kyle complaining to no end. They would not even give the show a chance because of it and that’s not even counting the racial slurs and BS that some of them threw around. No one told them to go and watch the show even if was John Stewart in order to promote Green Lantern. Instead they cried about forced diversity and PC from Day One. Even though Kyle was still the star of the main book and Hal got pushed for over a decade no that wasn’t good enough. So why should we be the mule years later? That doesn’t make sense.

          In a world where Black Panther outsells most of the “iconic”, traditional, DC heroes and in a world where movies like the latest Star Wars grosses millions, why does DC drag their feet and halfass their support for their Black characters? Hell, you can apply that to POC in general. It’s embarrassing and when there are alternatives why settle for less?

  • Evan

    If I may add in my two cents. I understand the perspective of where both Desh and Sebastian is headed with their stance. In Sebastian’s case I can also see the thought process of supporting anything GL, because having something is better than having nothing. The GLC is a group of space cops, they’re a team. Over the years each of the four Earth based Lanterns has headlined a series. And it’s safe to assume that the rotation will continue. It is obvious that each Lantern will have the the opportunity to have a lead role while the others will take the back seat. However where I get Desh’s point is that the characters aren’t treated equally. Hal Jordan will always be DC’s #1 guy and no matter what happens in comics, tv or film, Hal Jordan will always receive a championship title shot ahead of the other Lanterns, even if John, Kyle, Guy, Simon or Jessica deserves it more than Hal. John Stewart has come a long way, and the last thing fans of his wants to see is him be the “Robin” to Hal Jordan’s “Batman”. Personally, I don’t mind having any Lantern co-star with John (ex: GLC 2020 film) as long as John gets as much if not more page/screen time as his associates. Since DC/WB is unwilling to ever give John Stewart that kind of respect in the presence of their hand picked chosen one Hal Jordan…then I prefer Hal not even to be in the equation. I became a GL fan because it represents the most diversified group in all of DC. However over the years, I wouldn’t know that since all I see is Hal Jordan billboards all over the place. And honestly, it has resulted in me resenting that character. I’m at the point where I’m like, anyone but him. Give me Sinestro, Kilowog, Aresia, Ch’p, Daffy Duck wearing a GL ring. Give me anyone except for Hal Jordan!

    • DarthYan

      except john stewart can be boring as fuck. Hal actually has an interesting backstory (his past with sinestro and his fall from grace and redemption).

      John was ok in the tv series but he doesn’t quite have a unique backstory

  • Hudson Faber

    Hey, Desh, here’s a comment you may be interested in:

    [quote]Just to add some perspective to the black heroes in the DC and Marvel conversation:

    Black Panther was named the best selling book of 2016. He’s been well received after CACW, and his movie is already looking amazing with top talent attached to it.

    Luke Cage is getting his own Netflix series.

    There are rumors that Blade is getting a Netflix series

    There are rumors that Miles Morales is going to star in Sony’s animated Spiderman film

    War Machine, Falcon and Nick Fury have wide appeal thanks to the MCU

    Moon Girl won a glyph award

    Sam Wilson’s the new Captain America (and he’s supported by Marvel)

    David Walker is writing Power man and Iron fist, and Nighthawk over a Marvel (and both are great)

    Then there’s titles like Ultimates that showcase Blue Marvel, Spectrum and Black Panther…a long with a multitude of other books that show off black characters, and their settings. Along with Miles Morales’ Spiderman,

    And DC has Cyborg, a book that may or may not be getting a Rebirth title (I still can’t find anything in the solicits) and a hero who may or may not be getting his own movie (there’s nothing definite about it at all).[/quote]

    http://community.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?307-Cyborg-(a-k-a-Vic-Stone)-Appreciation-REDUX!!!!!!/page107

    • Blakk Jakk

      Thanks for that quote. It solidifies my position that DC needs to give minority readers more options than they’re given. DC not only has John Stewart, Cyborg and New Wally under their ownership but Static, the 2nd Mr. Terrific, XS, the 2nd Aqualad, Batwing and probably a hell of a lot more I’m missing. Why don’t any of these characters headline any books or make important appearances in major events? And this is a chance for DC to try and one up Marvel here by looking through their repertoire and bringing in minority characters who aren’t black. So far only Jaime Reyes is the sole Mexican character that’s headlining a book and he’s sharing it with Ted Kord and I know there’s a lot more than just Jaime. DC has a real opportunity to out-diversify Marvel and they’re screwing that up by sticking to their Silver Age nostalgia.

  • PadThai2

    http://www.apex-magazine.com/black-communities-of-the-30th-century-racial-assimilation-and-ahistoricity-in-superhero-comics/

    This isn’t the only essay I’ve read dealing with race and the superhero, but I think it gives some insight into how the decisions made by creators in the past affect how things are handled in the present at DC and Marvel.

  • Hudson Faber

    Do you have any interest in seeing John team up with Wally since he’s officially returned?

    • Desh Derringer

      I do not, because that’s just not going to happen. John’s relationships in the DCAU don’t exist in the comic book DC universe, and holding out any hope that the writers will incorporate those relationships in the comics this many years later is really… um… a wasted effort, I think. DC would be more likely to do a Kyle Rayner/Wally West team up, in my opinion. Furthermore, I don’t believe anyone behind the scenes at DC cares enough about John Stewart to even think to do something like that. They write about him in Green Lantern books (occasionally), because he can be kinda’ hard not to address in that setting, but I doubt anyone would care to go out of their way to do a Wally West/John Stewart team-up.

      I’ve reconciled that the DCAU is the DCAU, and if you like it, there are a vast collection of DVDs to enjoy. DC Comics, at this point, doesn’t seem particularly interested in catering to people who are nostalgic for it, aside from Harley Quinn fans and the releasing of Batman: TAS figures.

      So seeing things like John and Shayera and John and Wally? Don’t hold your breath.
      Since I know it won’t happen, I don’t even entertain the thought of DC doing it or wondering what it would be like.

      Maybe you might see it if a new regime comes in power at DC who feels differently than the current one about some issues, but those are pretty big ifs and a lot of hoping that, to me, just isn’t even worth it at this point.

      • Steve Rogers

        I agree. What person(s), who in power do you think should get demoted or fired so they can see rather new creative ideas that benefit John Stewart? I know Geoff Johns should be the #1 on the list. I do get a sense that it seems the best choice for DC to use John Stewart is to get rid of some people there.

        • Desh Derringer

          Anyone who thinks that certain black characters should never even be given a chance to surpass certain white ones. Anyone trying to hold on to old, OLD outdated ideals, because they were how things were fifty-something years ago. Neither of those worldviews are beneficial to black characters at all, and that is largely why those characters suffer so much at DC.

          • Blakk Jakk

            I recall Geoff Johns saying that he wants to respect the idea of legacy in DC Rebirth. So why is it that Geoff Johns and the top brass at DC afraid that successors of their old characters are going to overshadow what their favorite characters have left behind. It’s one thing to bring back Hal, Barry & Ted Kord (I exempt Ted here in what I’m going to say next) but it’s another to dump everything that their successors have done to prop up these old characters again. Ted Kord at least will have more adventures with Jaime Reyes but Hal & Barry are going on their own adventures at the expense of everyone else and that annoys me a lot. It took a lot of fans to force DC’s hand to get Wally back and to convince DC not to kill off John. For Geoff Johns saying that he wants to respect the idea of legacy, he sure has a funny way of respecting one part of the equation. Perhaps to him, legacy means remembering everything his favorite characters did and only that instead of how Mark Waid was defining legacy with his Flash run or even recently with Jaime Reyes taking over as Blue Beetle.

          • Desh Derringer

            About the legacy thing… I’m pretty sure the thought of DC brass is this:

            Their main heroes (to be clear, Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, The Flash, Green Lantern, and Aquaman) should have “families”. The ‘heads’ of the families should be these characters: Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Hal Jordan, Barry Allen, and Aquaman. These other family members are underlings beneath those heads. If sales permit, maybe some of the underlings can have “spin off” titles.

            DC will permit John Stewart and Wally West to be around as underlings. Why they erased Wally, and wanted to kill John, is because they threatened their family heads, because they are arguably more popular and/or have more recognition than the heads. It really says something when so many people think Green Lantern is black. I think DC was afraid of WB overlords choosing to use John and Wally for big projects instead of DC’s preferred choices. and thus continuing to perpetuate the idea that Green Lantern is John Stewart, like the DCAU cartoons did.

            So, I think DC will only allow John and Wally to be in subordinate roles.

            Thanks a lot for the kind words about Starlit Crisis. It’s funny, but Shayera has already appeared. She is hiding in the background of page 2 of issue 2:
            http://greenlantern.co/starlit-crisis/issue-02/page-02.jpg

            I’ll be honest with you. Wally would be difficult to fit in at this point without making things very contrived, but there is definitely a good possibility of Shayera playing a larger role. There’s more on the way soon! Thanks again.

          • Blakk Jakk

            That is more conservative thinking from DC than I had thought. And the sad thing is you’re most certainly right about that. I shouldn’t be surprised honestly, this is the same DC that wants to remain marinated in Silver Age nostalgia and wants to run things like its the 1960s again. I mean, I love seeing Wally back and all but to see him in his Kid Flash costume again and no longer married to Linda is way too many steps back. It seems like Ted & Jaime are the only ones who are actually progressing as characters since almost every Blue Beetle fan has wanted to see them together and not in a weird time travel scenario but actually meet each other and work as a team. That to me is how Hal & Barry should have come back but the exact opposite happened. It’s telling when the top brass at DC are so insecure of their favorite characters that they have to pull out everything they can to try and shove everyone else to the side to make room for their favorites and try to destroy the legacy these characters have taken on and left behind themselves. John and Wally aren’t in the most dignified of positions and Shayera is even worse if she even still exists at all in the DCU. If Hal Jordan can have his Parallax event undone and Barry Allen his death in the first Crisis undone to keep their legacies in tact, how is it not hypocritical to try and pretend as though John and Wally don’t have a massive amount of history like Hal & Barry do. It’s so frustrating that their growth keeps getting stunted in favor of old timey Silver Age nostalgia. It’s ironic DC listened to the Blue Beetle fans but didn’t listen to the Flash fans or the GL fans but I’m guessing Blue Beetle doesn’t matter as much to DC.

            Also, gosh darn it! Shayera is a sneaky one isn’t she? I can understand why Wally won’t appear. You could justify his appearance as the threat of the Anti-Monitor affecting the Speed Force and Barry Allen or the Speed Force itself spurring Wally on to fight AM. That’s probably very contrived but it is a justification. I’m mostly wanting more of that awesome Wally dialogue with John. Him and John had some funny moments together.

          • Steve Rogers

            I for one wouldn’t be scared to say that DC seems to refuse to have equality among black characters like John Stewart whenever he shares the book with another white character. If it was me, I would also restrict writers, who previously worked on the GLC book that always put focus on other white males over John Stewart. A good way to fix that would be to either force good writers to write John Stewart or find another good writer to pitch in for a John Stewart focused GLC series. I personally am stunned to find out that EVS thinks like that. He was on record even saying that he’s a fan of the concept than a character. He’s really no different from Geoff Johns and Dan Didio. I would get rid of him in a heartbeat, too.

          • Desh Derringer

            EVS’ views don’t surprise me. 99.99999% of the GL comics I’ve seen him and Geoff Johns associated with have essentially had John Stewart in ancillary roles if he’s there at all. I can look at these guys’ output and tell that they don’t think all that much of the John Stewart character. If they cared to have him important in stories, and as a leading character, they’d just have him that way.

            As someone who has worked on comics, believe me when I say that wouldn’t be difficult to do. The reason they never do that, and do just about ANYTHING but that, is simply because they don’t care to put focus on John Stewart like that. There is no mystical force making them have John Stewart in the background, or having only two sentences of dialogue, or just being generally unimportant, aside from their own whims and desires. They are actively choosing to portray John like that, as they’ve always done when given the opportunity, despite having numerous, NUMEROUS opportunities to actually do something worthwhile with the character.

            Van Sciver’s output goes hand in hand with the views he expressed on CBR, so honestly, it isn’t surprising to me at all.

          • Steve Rogers

            It’s good to see their true colors come out. We need to realize that not only Geoff Johns and Dan Didio is intentionally ruining John Stewart’s chances as a strong front character in the comics, but it hurts his chances in media. It really sucks that Geoff Johns has a close relationship with Netherealm studios. Injustice 2 video game has been announced and it looks like Geoff Johns may have some involvement in it. I guess Hal Jordan is going to be the forefront of that video game again. He and other DC people really needs to get demoted/fired. It’s starting to become very annoying as a John Stewart fan.

          • Blakk Jakk

            You know there’s only one issue I liked with Injustice. It was the Year Four Annual. Why? Because it stars my favorite DC superhero, Plastic Man and shock of all shocks, he was the same as his canon counterpart! Cherry on top goes to him insulting Injustice Superman to his face, mocking the stupidity of Injustice with him nearly dying and being inspired to live on and just being so damn awesome in that issue. Everything else has been terrible. It’s the grimdarkification of DC that’s culminated into one series from the many years of grimdarkification of DC from the late 80s to now and the comics are worse than the game in that regard. It’s not really shocking to me that Zack Snyder wants to follow that model but hopefully won’t get to. It’s still a shame that Injustice 2 is happening and it’s gonna make gobs of money for DC and WB. If Plas or any Charlton characters make an appearance, I won’t be happy.

          • PadThai2

            It’s a shame because Injustice plays well, but I wish a company like Arc System Works or SNK could have worked on a DC game. It would have looked a lot more interesting. The game looks so dark and boring; something’s wrong when Mortal Kombat has more color than a game based on DC Comics.

          • Blakk Jakk

            You’re absolutely right. I’m not even against Injustice in concept because Mortal Kombat is a good series but when juxtaposed against DC, it feels so wrong. Had this been some sort of strange thing like Parallax or the Anti-Life Equation pitting the entire DCU against itself, I think it would still feel odd. This is the same DC that put out Identity Crisis, Infinite Crisis, much of the New 52, Futures End, etc. and it all seems to have completely amalgamated with Injustice’s story. It plays well but it’s so dour that I end up wanting to play something else like Guilty Gear. The way it handles it’s characters and gleefully murders so many of the characters irreverently got me so angry. The way Captain Marvel was killed almost had me throwing the controller across the room. And then there’s the comics which rack it up to 11. So few characters go out without a fight, they die way too easily. I have to wonder if Taylor has ever read Crisis on Infinite Earths because in that crossover, the opposite is true. Supergirl punching out the Anti-Monitor is a notable example and what I’d go to for how something in an MK inspired DCU should handle its deaths. But unfortunately, it doesn’t do that. I’m skipping on Injustice 2 and just gonna play the newest Guilty Gear.

          • DarthYan

            that’s the point; he’s a fallen hero. Superman from prime universe is still a brave hero and good man (he brings down the evil clone)

            He’s kind hearted cheerful and friendly. He stops his evil counterpart

          • Blakk Jakk

            Okay so? Is that all? Because it’s been done elsewhere and better. See Justice Lord Superman, Miracleman, The Plutonian, Red Son Superman, etc. Injustice Superman is hardly original or compelling or really makes any kind of sense with what we know about Superman. Though how badly portrayed Superman is pales in comparison to how badly botched the character deaths are. God damn do those feel like a giant middle finger to the reader like John Stewart’s being impaled by Sinestro and his death being blamed on Guy to turn Hal against him. Injustice is garbage, plain and simple.

          • DarthYan

            part of it is that Hal and John are both cool. Desh’s comments slagging Hal were kinda needless and made me less sympathetic to john.

            I liked In Justice Superman. He was tricked into murdering his family and city at the same time, his parents were arrested and Batman wasn’t there for him. I actually felt bad for him, and his murder of Billy Batson was chilling.

          • Blakk Jakk

            John was cool? He was only in Injustice for like 5 issues. Yeah, we really got to see John shine in roughly 5 issues compared to how many issues has Hal been in? Don’t have an exact number but it’s a lot more. You tell me who got the short end of the stick here especially given how humiliation John’s death was. If that had happened to Hal, everyone’s hair would have been on fire.

            He’s an awful character and villain. Plastic Man was right to call him on his hypocrisy and to wound his ego enough to send him into a homicidal fury. The Kingdom Come Superman needs to teach him a few lessons about how power can corrupt someone like him.

          • DarthYan

            I said AS CHARACTERS. Hal has his whole redemption arc and desire to atone for his sins. You can get tons of mileage out of it.

            Part of the thing is that Johns grew up with Hal. He wanted to write Hal. So he got upset with anyone stealing Hal’s thunder. If John were white he would have been shafted by Johns regardless. He got upset with Wally West taking Barry’s mantle because HE grew up with BARRY. John’s problem is that he wants the comics to be the ones from HIS childhood not realizing that things have moved on. It’s a shame because some of his stuff (Superman, Volthoom, Nekron, some of the ideas of the wars) are actually not that bad. He’s like Garth Ennis in that if he can put his baggage at the door he’s a good writer.

          • Blakk Jakk

            Not really since it’s a cliche at this point with Hal. It seems like Hal has only one story. He goes on his own, screws up and then comes back better than ever. Rinse and repeat. Yawn.

            Who cares? He could have brought back Hal without sidelining Kyle and John. Now yes, John did take Kyle’s spot in the JLA but that pales in comparison to Hal taking John’s thunder away for years and years despite John being the mainstream favorite. Hal’s arc could have involved Kyle and John a lot more but nope, let’s have some rainbow wars and alien gods instead! Yay! Yeah, Hal’s arc of redemption and soul searching as the Spectre went out the window thanks to Johns.

            As for Wally and Barry why does that matter? Johns was writing Wally’s character for years since the early 2000’s to the mid 2000’s. He advanced Wally quite a bit and then threw it out the window because Silver Age nostalgia. I’d have more respect for Johns if he used Barry’s resurrection to advance Wally and Bart’s character but nope, it became all about Barry and it’s been all about Barry since 2009. Johns is a hypocrite and a terrible writer who can’t stick to consistency. I’d refer you to how he treated Ted Kord as well. Yeah real respectful of him to ignore continuity and put a bullet in his head wasn’t it?

          • Desh Derringer

            Well, Johns and DiDio… and many people who think like them… rationalize their nostalgia by believing that Hal Jordan and Barry Allen have some sacred claim to being Green Lantern and The Flash because they were “the Silver Age originals”. Therefore, their right somehow supersedes all other characters. Never mind that neither Barry Allen nor Hal Jordan are the original incarnations of The Flash and Green Lantern, and never mind that neither would exist if it wasn’t for Jay Garrick and Alan Scott.

            What it really comes down to is that those characters are their favorites and that’s all there is to it. It’s an emotional decision. It’s kind of annoying when people try to add reason and logic to it, as if there is an absolute RIGHT answer, because it’s always so circular.

            There are also reasons to use John Stewart, like him not having a critical and financial flop of a movie, being a huge part of a much loved cartoon show that people will always remember, and being DC’s best accepted and most popular diverse hero. Personally, I think those are better real world reasons than… “Well, this guy is the Silver Age original.”

          • Blakk Jakk

            I can almost relate to Hal and Barry fans as a fan of the Blue Beetle up to a point. It’s an undeniable fact by now that the most popular of the Blue Beetles is Jaime Reyes. He’s made appearances in Smallville, Young Justice, Batman: Brave and the Bold and elsewhere too. Ted Kord has made several less memorable appearances and I don’t think Dan Garrett has ever appeared in any media outside of comics. So, when the mainstream thinks of Blue Beetle, they think Jaime Reyes. Ted’s my favorite and seeing Jaime as the most popular Blue Beetle does not bother me. I’m just glad there’s positive reception attached to the Blue Beetle’s name instead of the bomb that was the Green Lantern movie.

            And that would be where I cannot understand the line of thinking. Yeah, Ted is the “Silver Age original,” (although not really, Dan had stories during the Silver Age under Charlton Publications before Ted took over) but Jaime Reyes is just as important as Ted is. Again, I like that Blue Beetle has been received well by the mainstream and that Jaime is being beloved by new fans even if ideally I’d like Ted to get mainstream exposure. So really, the reason Hal and Barry being less popular than their newer, younger counterparts is silly. John and Wally have brought nothing but great reception to the Green Lantern and The Flash while Hal has done really badly and Barry is doing okay (although that Flash cameo in BvS was a great bit of comedy for me) but he’s definitely not as memorable as DCAU Flash was.

          • DarthYan

            Desh don’t be a douchebag. The animated green lantern series was critically well received and good with viewers. Toy sales were the reason it failed

          • DarthYan

            alien gods kinda works though. We had the green lantern. Why the hell not add the yellow orange blue

          • Blakk Jakk

            You missed my point. There were story arcs revolved around them instead of developing Hal, John, Kyle, Guy, Ganthet, etc. as characters. I’m not at all interested in them other than as pieces of lore that interact with the characters and setting on occasion. The focus should be on the actual Green Lanterns but Johns didn’t do that.

          • Desh Derringer

            Exactly which comments are you talking about?

            My feelings are that if my comments about a completely different character make you like John Stewart less, I’m skeptical if you ever really liked John Stewart. I’m not John Stewart, and I don’t dictate what John does or how he thinks, so I should be totally out of the picture. And not liking John Stewart is completely okay!

            As for my comments being needless, again, I’m not sure which ones you’re referring to, but generally, I write what I really think. I believe I create the most compelling content when I’m not censoring myself or walking on eggshells. I know that what I write won’t appeal to everyone, and again, to me, that’s okay! I’m not really even making an effort to appeal to EVERYONE, because I know if I tried to do that, my content would be more sterile, I wouldn’t be able to say what I really think on issues that I think should be discussed, and, overall, I wouldn’t have as much fun working on the site.

            I think the audience that I have generally likes the articles I make, and that makes me satisfied.

          • DarthYan

            It’s basically “Hal Jordan sucks”. I disagree. Hal can be a compelling character (his guilt over what he did under Parallax’s influence, his desire to achieve redemption) are not terrible storylines

            I loved the JL cartoon when I was younger. I understand feeling shafted. But the Green Lantern Animated series WAS well received by both critics and viewers. Hardly proof that Hal is unmarketable.

          • Desh Derringer

            Well, since you brought all this up…

            The problem with Hal Jordan (and I think the GL: Animated series goes hand in had with this), is that, yes, he’s popular with his fans (and yes, those fans are out there), but no one else seems to care that much. And no matter how hard WB has tried to make people care, no matter how much money they’ve thrown at him, how much they’ve increased his visibility, he has not caught on as he should have, and I’m sure as WB and DC would have hoped.

            They gave him his own movie, show, toyline, and so on. John Stewart does not have any of that, or has not had near that effort put into him specifically, and as far as being accepted well and respected in mass media, he has… I would say, done exponentially better than Hal Jordan. Just the fact that he is still relevant as Green Lantern in many peoples’ minds after that large storm of Hal Jordan content is impressive. The fact that many people, including multi-million dollar actors, want to see him in movies instead of Hal Jordan, after all that stuff WB put out with Jordan while ignoring John Stewart, is impressive.

            The Green Lantern cartoon, to me, is another example of all of this. Yes, it’s popular with its fans, but in the grand scheme of things, I’m not sure it left a very big mark, because I don’t believe enough people cared. When people talk about shows from that period, it’s always overshadowed by Young Justice. What people really seemed to love was Young Justice. What they really seem to miss is Young Justice. What they talk about bringing back is Young Justice. I know it’s anecdotal, but I only hear about Green Lantern: The Animated series anymore from Hal Jordan fans.

            About Green Lantern: The Animated Series, I did not care for it, because it seemed cheap and dinky. The set pieces were largely large, empty areas devoid of characters, and none of the action scenes were that good.

            It looked even worse when set right beside the Clone Wars cartoon, which I think it aired right next to sometimes. Clone Wars had amazing battles in interesting set pieces, with loads of models running around, and it made Green Lantern (a very comparable show) look REALLY low budget. An example:
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=du8zO3wD-J0

            The Green Lantern show never pulled anything near off like that, and Clone Wars was doing it regularly. Unsurprisingly the Clone Wars cartoon lasted for many years and GL was quickly off the air.

            I didn’t find the story terribly interesting. The most interesting part about it was probably the two ‘supporting’ characters Bruce Timm and co. made up, Aya and Razor, and not even the main character. It seemed to me that Timm and his team put a lot for effort in them and that the actual emotional core of the story was with them and not Hal Jordan.

            But that’s all just my opinion.

          • Steve Rogers

            I couldn’t have said it better, Desh. And who was the GL that was the most heavily featured in YJ? John Stewart. Although the core of the show was focused on the youngsters, the JL did have story lines and John was basically the league’s lantern on the show that had more relevance than Hal and Guy. There were no complaints about John being featured more than Hal on that show. Where is this huge popularity that Hal fans keep speaking of? As if Hal’s popularity has some significant difference over John Stewart.

            DC could’ve definitely gave Marvel a good challenge by using John Stewart the way he should be used in the most logical common sense, but no, Geoff Johns and DC don’t want that. All of those people need to just leave already, because I’m really tired of them.

          • Blakk Jakk

            What’s actually funnier is John actually has a voice instead of Hal. Hal never speaks outside of a “No” to Guy’s inclusion in the Justice League with John. John was there to attack Rimbor, he was there during the final fight on the Watchtower and he stood on trial with the rest of the League. Where was Hal in any of this? He was nowhere to be seen, indicating that John was not only the founder of the JLA but also Hal’s superior. Granted, it is as you say, the show wasn’t about the JLA, it was about Young Justice but it still says something when even the Greg Weisman seems to prefer John to Hal.

          • Kal

            He certainly wasn’t a founder, there were statues of the founding members in front of the Hall of Justice, one of which was Hal’s. I’m not certain if it was ever elaborated on the show, or if the producers ever said something about it, but Hal probably had John take his place on the team at some point if he was going to be more in space. That would make sense given Young Justice’s entire premise was legacy, but I’m not certain why you get the idea that Weisman prefers John over Hal just because John had more cameos. By that logic he must have totally hated Guy then, not to mention Kyle who didn’t appear on the show at all. The trial story was done as a tribute to JLU, which is why Hawkgirl was also there during the whole thing. I don’t see this as indicative of any preference on the producers’ part towards certain characters over others. New incarnations tend to honor older incarnations that way fairly often. I’m pretty sure X-Men: Evolution had plenty of callbacks to the 90s series.

          • DarthYan

            not really. It could be Hal was doing work elsewhere.

          • Desh Derringer

            Regarding Hal Jordan’s popularity, I’m sure his fans would point to Geoff Johns’ run. The problem with that line of thinking, though, is that none of that translated to popularity outside of the rather negligible sphere of comic book readers. Which goes back to what I was saying that he’s popular with his fans, but no one else seems to care much. Hal Jordan’s an example of a character with a very passionate hardcore fanbase, but not much of a casual fanbase to speak of. And a casual fanbase is really important.

          • DarthYan

            Hal isn’t a bad concept though; he certainly could have been there WITHOUT dragging John down. Maybe a mentor like figure to younger lanterns.

          • Kal

            “no one else seems to care much” I don’t know about that, Hal Jordan has had plenty of exposure in other media, certainly doesn’t make all the sense in the world to claim that noone cares about him outside of comics. The reasons why the live-action movie failed or why the GL cartoon was cancelled afterwards are well known. None of it was a direct cause of the mere fact that Hal Jordan was featured as the main character. The notion to label Jordan as someone nobody cares about usually comes from embittered John Stewart fans with zealous sense of entitlement that being part of one cartoon should’ve given him the key to the city. This “casual fanbase” that you mentioned, I wouldn’t exactly call a fanbase. Tony Stark, Thor or Steve Rogers are examples of characters with casual fanbase that hugely transcends comics. Those that you speak of don’t even seem to know the guy’s name, they just know John as “the black Green Lantern from that old show”. They don’t seem to be actually invested in his character, so is it reasonable to assume that the vast majority of John’s fanbase is limited to a negligible sphere of comic book readers, as well?

          • DarthYan

            horseshit. The tv show did VERY well.

          • DarthYan

            John stewart’s not even a major character. He’s window dressing.

          • DarthYan

            that was due to toys. And since you only care about John Stewart you don’t really care about the franchise.

          • DarthYan

            that’s kinda the point; the climax of the game is good supes defeating his evil counterpart.

          • Neil Allen

            Why are you leaving five comments in a row?

            The Green Lantern tv show got one season. That’s all. That is the reality. It did not prove profitable, and it wasn’t in demand enough to get another one. It’s Young Justice that is being renewed for another season. Not Green Lantern.

            I agree with you that John Stewart is not a major character. He’s just some black guy they have around in Green Lantern that’s usually way behind the white guy. He is a disappointing character, true, but this does not mean thee other characters are better than he is.

            You are correct about me not caring about Green Lantern outside of John Stewart, If John Stewart is not adequately featured to my standards, there is NOTHING there for me. However you want to look at me because of that is up to you, but it doesn’t matter one way or the other to me. I don’t see why that is anything I should be ashamed of.

          • DarthYan

            That was due to crappy toy sales not quality dude; YJ fell due to the same bad toy sales (they were bundled with the film that bombed). YJ already had a second season before it fell prey to the weisman curse.

            And secondly if you only care about John Stewart you aren’t a gl fan. You’re saying “fuck you other fans. You’re characters suck and don’t matter.”

          • Neil Allen

            I may or may not think those other characters suck, but only caring about John Stewart isn’t saying anything to fans of other Green Lanterns. I’m also not a fan of Captain Atom. In your view, am I also saying “fuck you” to Captain Atom fans? Personally, I don’t see how I would be. My not being a fan of Captain Atom isn’t saying anything to that character’s fans. I think it is silly to expect me to be a fan of various random characters, and when I’m not, I’m apparently insulting the fans of those characters.

            As for that Green Lantern cartoon, I don’t have anything more to say about it. I don’t like it. If you do, more power to you.

          • DarthYan

            when you run a website about green lantern and then say you only care about one you aren’t really a fan.

          • Neil Allen

            That’s fine with me. I run a website specifically about the John Stewart version of Green Lantern, and only about that version. It seems to me like you’re acting like I have a responsibility to ALL Green Lantern fans to make content that will appeal to all of them.

            I don’t have a responsibility to cater to fans of other Green Lanterns. Heck, I don’t have a responsibility to do anything for John Stewart fans, either. Nobody is paying me to make content specifically for them. I’m not under contract with anyone to write a specific type of content. I write the content I feel like writing. If that doesn’t agree with you, well, I suppose you’re free to feel that way, but please do not put weird expectations on me.

            If I am not a Green Lantern fan to you, that’s A-okay with me. Which I think is something I must have said about ten times by now.

          • PadThai2

            LOL. That reminds me of the first Injustice where the team wanted to use John Stewart and then just like with Stephanie Brown and the Smallville comic all of a sudden they had to use Hal Jordan.They’re just going to keep pushing him and pushing him until the fans finally give in but that’s not how it works. Hell, Stewart ended up being put in Injustice but you had to pay to play as him. That’s really fucked up.

          • Steve Rogers

            Wait a minute. Was John Stewart REALLY the first choice to be part of the cast in Injustice!?

          • PadThai2

            Yeah. There’s some concept art online and with an interview where one of the people from Netherealm mentioned that they had original based the role of GL on John Stewart. When I find the link I’ll add it here.

          • Hudson Faber

            I remember seeing that as well.

  • Hudson Faber
    • Steve Rogers

      Why what happened? I’ve read some of it.

      • Hudson Faber

        Just more of the brilliant DC marketing machine. I feel bad for Venditti sometimes. You can tell when he’s saddled with creative mandates when he writes, and sometimes even when whoever’s in charge of marketing is in his ear. Anyway, it’s more of “Hal, John, and Guy are the leads of a book called Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps” BS. I actually applauded DC when Van Sciver said John would only be a guest star in HJ & the GLC on CBR, but to see DC peddling fake promises again is pretty annoying. We’ve seen this before, all over the Johns run and even as recently as the Darkseid War annual. The title of the book alone makes it an obvious lie. Van Sciver’s own admission makes it an obvious lie. The covers make it an obvious lie. And people wonder why John fans don’t trust DC or anything they say. I don’t see why John fans should give them another cent. I guess they figure since they’ve tricked us to many times before they can do it again. What’s most frustrating about the false advertising related to John is that DC clearly realizes John is a draw but they refuse to actually meet that demand. And people say we should buy non-John books in the unrealistic hope that we’ll get a John book. We’ve heard that too, haven’t we? How much more can they marginalize Joh Stewart? How many other white characters can they try to force him behind? Based on their treatment of Carol Danvers, Scott Lang, Sam Alexander, etc., we all know this wouldn’t be happening to John is Marvel owned these characters; heck, he’s probably have been carrying the franchise since 2001. I can’t support the DC while these petty folks are in charge. John will never get a chance to shine in this regime.

        • Blakk Jakk

          I’m in agreement here. I’m even willing to give Venditti a modicum of credit here, he might have been told to say that by DiDio and Johns even though it’s clear from the title of the book that what he’s saying is crap. Again a little benefit of the doubt, I don’t really care to know as he must be in agreement with DiDio and Johns since he’s been hanging around Green Lantern for quite some time despite his unpopularity with fans and Van Jensen getting booted off and not returning for mysterious reasons that I’m sure aren’t so mysterious with us. If they really didn’t have a huge Hal bias, and an anti-John bias I might add, then why are they keeping a largely disliked writer around who’s Green Lantern sales haven’t been all that great compared to Jensen’s run which was one of the top selling, if not the top selling of all the Lantern books? That’s just one example and despite my willingness to cut Venditti a little bit of slack, I feel he’s not entirely on the up and up with Stewart’s fanbase. If he were such a massive fan of Stewart, I’m fairly certain he could have persuaded DiDio and Johns for Jensen to stay on Green Lantern.

        • Desh Derringer

          There is certainly some conflicting information here. Van Sciver said that John is just a guest star that appears occasionally, and that the book is Hal-centric, while Venditti says John Stewart is one of the leads. Based on the title of the book, and all the promotional art, it seems pretty clear that the lead character is Hal Jordan.

          Venditti likely only said that John is a lead to attempt to make John’s fans (us) feel better, and hopefully buy the book. I’m not falling for it, either.

          I don’t expect the current editorial regime to do John Stewart any justice. They’ve had over a decade to do something worthwhile with the character, and have only displayed disinterest/dislike toward him.

          If they were interested in really doing something with the character, like Bruce Timm was, then they would have done it by now. All we get from them are lies and empty promises, because actually living up to what they say they will do in interviews and such is too much trouble for them (even though it isn’t difficult to do).

          Again, I stress that if DC editors and writers wanted to focus on John, all it takes is for a writer to open up a word document and type John doing stuff, and then have an artist draw it. That’s all. Doing that on a consistent basis is apparently too much to ask from DC. They would rather hype the character up on websites and social media, and then do nothing with him in the actual material that they print.

          Serious question, here. Is Geoff Johns really dimwitted enough to think that John Stewart fans will be jumping up and down over one splash page of the character, and then after that he gets a sentence or two of dialogue? Or does he intentionally troll us by building up our hopes and expectations, and getting us to buy stuff only to discover that it was all a giant lie?

          • Hudson Faber

            According to Sodam Yat over at CBR, Venditti has been responding to Hal fans on Twitter who are complaining that Hal has to share the book, lol. These fanbases will never be united because we have fundamentally opposing interests. What are your thoughts, Desh?

          • Desh Derringer

            That’s a really good question, Hudson, and I’m glad you asked. What do I think of this situation… and I’m going to go into Hal Jordan fans in general. I could write a whole article on this subject, but I don’t want to be THAT much of a mudslinger toward other fans, so I’ll express my thoughts here:

            It probably isn’t a big surprise that I often find Hal Jordan fans obnoxious and insufferable. That being said, I am more than sure they find me and some of us the same way. And yes, that just spells out how divided the Green Lantern fanbase is.

            Here are my problem with some of them:

            They often pretend like they are mild and take the high road, and that John Stewart fans are a bunch of needlessly negative rabble rousers. As a matter of fact, Ethan Van Sciver once even told me I was negative for no reason. HOWEVER! the minute they feel their guy is threatened, their fangs come out, and their true colors are seen.

            They are not about peace and tranquility, like they may suggest sometimes. They are not about compromise. They are not about sharing. They are about maintaining a status quo with their guy on top. If they feel that is threatened, they become feral and spiteful. I already knew all this because I saw how they were during JL/U, in which many referred to John as a PC token and blah blah blah. So they have absolutely no legitimate right to act like John Stewart fans are complainers, trouble makers, negative, and so on, like they sometimes do, because they are no better, and actually probably worse. Actually, sometimes THEY ARE worse. I have never heard of a John Stewart fan sending ANYBODY death threats because things didn’t go the way they want in comics. All I’ve heard of John’s fans doing is deciding not to financially support the titles… like reasonable people.

            I definitely cannot stand the Hal Jordan fans who pretend they like John Stewart but only hang around his fans to tell them that Hal Jordan is “the face” of the franchise, and so on, and to sing the praises of Hal Jordan, and to essentially promote Hal Jordan to John Stewart fans, and make excuses for why John Stewart is screwed over, and criticize John’s fans for being upset about it. I don’t consider such people fans of John Stewart, but rather an especially annoying brand of Hal Jordan fan that I would prefer not to be around, and I’m glad I’m not anymore. They are the Hal Jordan fan that wants the John Stewart fan to be satisfied with the Hal Jordan status quo, and criticizes the John fan for voicing their discontent with it. They are NOT on John Stewart’s side, which is largely why their views are opposed to the views of real John Stewart fans about 90% of the time.

            I don’t like how generally dishonest and disingenuous Hal Jordan fans can be. John Stewart’s fans are typically really honest, and that’s why the turmoil exists, because John’s fans say what they think a lot of the time, and it often runs counter to what Hal Jordan fans want. Many Hal Jordan fans pretend to like John Stewart (even when they REALLY don’t), and wonder why we all can’t just get along. Here’s an example you’ve probably experienced. Anyone who pretends they like John Stewart, but says he should be a Darkstar, an Indigo Lantern, or a whatever the heck else that isn’t Green Lantern… 9.9 times out of 10 they REALLY aren’t a John Stewart fan. They just want to get rid of him so there will be more room for whoever they prefer. So, they put up a front like they’re on John’s side, but they really aren’t.

            I don’t respect that type of subterfuge, and I’ve seen it a lot from Hal Jordan’s fanbase. John Stewart fans typically don’t bother with such fronts.

            Ultimately, I think John Stewart and Hal Jordan have two entirely different fanbases that don’t really want the same thing. Neither fanbase cares about the other character and doesn’t want to read/watch the other. Hal Jordan fans feel entitled that Green Lantern is “theirs,” largely because of old comic book history and the current DC regime supports that view. John Stewart fans feel Hal Jordan needs to move over because of the massive failures of Hal Jordan’s biggest projects, his lack at being able to get over in mass media, and John Stewart’s success and recognition in that area. Hal Jordan fans criticize John’s success as “just being a cartoon,” without really considering that cartoon was more successful than anything Hal Jordan was a big part of.

            I guess both sides have their points. Is there a right or a wrong? I don’t know. Personally, I think it really is just COMMON SENSE to focus more on John Stewart when Hal Jordan failed to catch on. Actually, it was COMMON SENSE to focus more on John Stewart ever since the Justice League cartoon. I do believe John’s race has a lot to do with why he never really got that push from DC, and that’s upsetting, but that’s DC for you.

            Some Hal Jordan fans think Hal is on top because he magically has to be, and there is some kind of cosmic order that must always have him there. This is not true. He is there because of the whims of the people in charge of DC right now. That’s all. No cosmic balance. No perfect order. No, “it absolutely positively has to be that way just because!” It’s all due to the people running the company and that’s all. If the winds shifted and whoever running the company wanted John Stewart there, then John would be there. Bruce Timm wanted John Stewart for his cartoon, so John Stewart was there. He could have used any other white Green Lantern, like Kyle Rayner, and he chose to use John Stewart.

          • Desh Derringer

            I think the fanbases will probably always be divided, but that doesn’t mean they both can’t more or less get what they want, at least in comic form.

            I think if John were to get a book that focuses on him, and have an overall good spot within the DC Universe, then I believe there would be less tension with Hal Jordan fans (at least regarding the comics, perhaps not with the films/cartoons/video games and such). Also, the possibility of this happening for John should not at all be contingent on Hal Jordan’s success or failure.

            Many John fans don’t want to read about Hal Jordan and see John Stewart as a supporting character to Hal Jordan, and some Hal Jordan fans don’t want John around in Hal Jordan’s book. Therefore, it is really stupid to put all of these elements together, to me, because I don’t think anyone wins here.

          • Hudson Faber

            What happened to your site?

          • Desh Derringer

            Hey. I stumbled upon this page in a google search I did and couldn’t help but notice how many John fans from then are now banned.
            http://community.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?1107-Green-Lantern-John-Stewart-Appreciation-Thread/page333

            CBR got you, too, huh? What did they get you for?

            I have been really thinking of starting up my own general comics forum, because I don’t think it’s really good for CBR to have a near monopoly on that.

          • Steve Rogers

            I’m actually curious to know what did they ban him for. I never really cared for that site to be honest.